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If ever there were an example of the YouTube success story, Cavetown would be it. It all started in October 2013 when Cavetown — the musical moniker of English musician Robin Daniel Skinner — uploaded his first music video to a video-sharing platform.

Called “Haunted Lullaby,” the song was less than a minute long and featured Skinner’s light, comforting tenor vocals over a delicately-plucked ukulele and reversed samples.

Skinner was just 14 when he released his debut album, Everything Is Made of Clouds, on Bandcamp. The album came out roughly a month before “Haunted Lullaby” and began to draw listeners from the start. It’s an album that delivers the same warm, intimate feeling as many other forms of indie pop, though with a distinctive feeling of detached honesty and bedroom pop vibes.

All this inspiration had to come from somewhere. It should come as no surprise then that Skinner’s father, David, was a choir director and musicologist who taught his son guitar at age eight. Likewise, Skinner’s mother was a music teacher and a professional Baroque flutist. Raised in Cambridge, Skinner had no shortage of influences and musical trendsetters to follow.

After Clouds came more EPs and albums: 2014’s Gd Vibes, 2015’s Nervous Friends // Pt. 1 and Everything Is Made of Stars. In 2015, Skinner also released his first single “This Is Home” in advance of his self-titled album Cavetown in November 2015. This album combined acoustic and electronic elements in eight irresistible tracks, including “Meteor Shower” and “Devil Town.”

During this time Skinner had also begun another activity he is now famous for: covers. His YouTube channel became a virtual treasure trove of covers of artists like Joji, Twenty One Pilots, Pinegrove, and others, often with creative changes and introspective takes on the songs’ lyrical meanings.

2016 saw the release of Skinner’s second full-length album, 16/04/16. This title was the date of death of Skinner’s childhood friend, Jack Graham, who lost a battle with leukemia. The album is a touching tribute, with “warm, melodic bedroom pop” mixed with “lo-fi indie rock” – and 60% of all proceeds went to Cancer Research UK.

In April 2017, Skinner was still at Sixth Form College and had reached the final stage of the Cambridge Band Competition. He won both the Kimberley Rew Award for Songwriting and the Best Acoustic Act, which gave him a chance to play at Strawberry Fair that summer. One year later, he released LEMON BOY, his third full-length album, which has gone on to collect 54 million Spotify streams.

2019’s Animal Kingdom was a compilation of five single splits with artists like Simi, Sidney Gish, Chloe Moriondo, and spookyghostboy. The single “Prom Dress” by Mxmtoon has gathered over 152 million Spotify streams and has made it to 100,000+ videos on TikTok.

That same year, Cavetown signed to Sire Records and began a worldwide tour headlining sold-out shows. Playing at 31 venues in the US and 15 venues in the UK, he was joined by musical friends like Chloe Moriondo and Hunny.

Though COVID-19 forced cancellation of Cavetown’s 2020 tour, the year was still a busy one. He released his major label debut Sleepyhead, collaborated on the single “Smoke Signals” by Tessa Violet, and launched a unisex clothing line called Cave Collective.

Live reviews

Cavetown was absolutely amazing. The venue was small, only 200 people, so you could see well no matter where you were standing. The sound was good, lighting was good, no complaints on production. Robin sounds great live & was so sweet to everyone. He thanked people who yelled out compliments, answered questions; I've never seen a performer be so patient & polite.

I eagerly await his next show in Portland and I highly reccomend seeing him because it was really amazing.

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Cavetown was probably one of, if not the best concert I’ve been to. Robbie has such a good and wholesome energy, and the crowd was also very chill and had a great vibe. The two openers were great and did a good job warming up the crowd. Robbie’s live vocals are amazing (they are nearly identical to the studio recorded songs) and he genuinely presented himself as a nice and kind person. Overall, I would go again in a heartbeat. I highly suggest you see him!

This show was amazing. I created a hearts project for the show it it looked absolutely beautiful in The Sinclair. My only complaint about the show was that I was not aware that the coat check cost money, and that the line outside was awkward and wasn't well placed. The line of people went down the sidewalk and around the corner. If it had been nice weather I'm sure the sidewalk would have been PACKIN. But Cavetown is a lovely artist and made it all worth it.

I had so much fun at the concert!!

Spookyghostboy & HUNNY were amazing!!

Really good vibes and the volume was perfect omg.

The people were also really nice and ofcourse Cavetown was amazing!! I feel like he really interacted with the public and I love how he plays a lot of instruments himself during the concert.

It was really fun and I have nothing to complain about.

Best concert for so far!!

I took my daughter for her 13th birthday and while already a fan, she absolutely LOVED the experience! We thoroughly enjoyed Field Medic and Robin didn't disappoint.

The venue was very warm and a couple people dropped from the heat because everyone was packed in like sardines.

All in all though, it was a ton of fun! Thank you Ogden Theatre and Robin for a wonderful experience!

It was a really wholesome experience. Robin is soft and friendly and the audience was kind and supportive and the music was amazing live. The opener Field Medic was also a very interesting and wonderful choice!! His music is not what I expected but I grew to love it very quickly. Overall, my partner and I joy-cried several times and I didnt want it to end.

Best show I’ve been too so far. The set list was perfectly done, lights were perfect, venue was great. Chloe Moriondo was one of the artists who opened for him and was the best opener I’ve seen. We missed the first opener because of parking/traffic issues but still had an amazing time.

It was very nice! He was very very polite the entire show, to the point where he would mumble "Thank you" after every song. I loved every song he played! Also in the corner of the stage there was a TV playing videos of his cat the entire show. 10/10 I loved it!

lovely show. the lighting colors went with the songs. a beautiful boy singing is somgs. and he sang 3 new songs i didn't even know which was dope. i really liked his stage presence, he is exactly the person you think he is. a cute boy that cares for his fans

Amazing! The two opening acts were so fun and Cavetown was so much fun as well! He was so sweet with crowd interaction and staff was friendly and helpful with making sure guests were hydrated by giving out water during intermissions.

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Cavetown tour dates and tickets 2024-2025 near you

Want to see Cavetown in concert? Find information on all of Cavetown’s upcoming concerts, tour dates and ticket information for 2024-2025.

Cavetown is not due to play near your location currently - but they are scheduled to play 25 concerts across 2 countries in 2024-2025. View all concerts.

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• Field Medic (29)
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Arizona Financial Theatre | Phoenix, AZ

Cavetown & mother mother.

The Torch at LA Coliseum | Los Angeles, CA

Mother mother & cavetown, petco park | san diego, ca, greek theatre-u.c. berkeley | berkeley, ca, rogers arena | vancouver, bc.

• PARKING: ROGERS ARENA - Mother Mother

Red Rocks Amphitheatre | Morrison, CO

South side ballroom | dallas, tx, moody amphitheater | austin, tx, 713 music hall | houston, tx.

• Premier Parking - MOTHER MOTHER & CAVETOWN - Not a Concert Ticket
• Lobos VIP Club Access - MOTHER MOTHER & CAVETOWN - Not a Concert Tick
• Fast Lane Access - MOTHER MOTHER & CAVETOWN - Not a Concert Ticket

FPL Solar Amphitheater at Bayfront Park | Miami, FL

Orlando amphitheater at the central florida fair | orlando, fl, coca-cola roxy | atlanta, ga.

• EP Lounge - Cavetown - Not a Concert Ticket
• Coat Check- Cavetown - Not a Concert Ticket

The Anthem | Washington, DC

Highmark skyline stage at the mann | philadelphia, pa.

• Premier Parking - Cavetown & Mother Mother - Not a Concert Ticket**
• Fast Lane Access - Cavetown & Mother Mother - Not A Concert Ticket**

Budweiser Stage | Toronto, ON

Mgm music hall at fenway | boston, ma.

• Truly Rooftop Access - Cavetown (Not A Concert Ticket) 21+
• MassMutual Lounge Access - Cavetown (NOT A CONCERT TICKET)

The Rooftop at Pier 17 | New York, NY

Michigan lottery amphitheatre at freedom hill | sterling heights, mi.

• PremiumParking Michigan Lottery Amphitheatre: Mother Mother & Cavetown

Huntington Bank Pavilion at Northerly Island | Chicago, IL

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Cavetown announces summer headlining tour

Posted by Logan White | Jan 30, 2023 | News , Tour Announcements | 0 |

Today, multi-platinum and gold certified singer/songwriter/producer Cavetown , also known as Robin Skinner, announced that they will be heading out on a U.S. headlining tour this upcoming summer.

The “Bittersweet Daze” tour finds Cavetown teaming up with mxmtoon , Ricky Montgomery, and grentperez for the run. Tickets will go on-sale this Friday, February 3rd at 12pm EST. $1 from each ticket sold will be benefitting the This Is Home Project .

The upcoming tour marks Cavetown’s first tour stateside since Spring 2022 and is in support of his highly praised Fall 2022 album, worm food .  The first full length album since 2020’s Sleepyhead , Cavetown delivers his most elaborately realized body of work to date on worm food , shaping his idiosyncratic storytelling into songs that ultimately give voice to our own most intimate emotions. As with all his output, Skinner produced the album on his own at his home studio, holing up in his garage and infusing his understated alt-pop with a powerful new vitality.

Tour dates :

7/20 – Greek Theatre – Los Angeles, CA

7/21 – Cal Coast Credit Union Open – San Diego, CA

7/23 – Frost Amphitheater – Stanford, CA

7/25 – Saltair – Magna, UT

7/26 – Levitt Pavilion – Denver, CO

7/28 – St. Louis Music Park – Maryland Heights, MO

7/29 – The Salt Shed – Chicago, IL

7/30 – Rock The Ruins – Indianapolis, IL

8/1 – Jacobs Pavilion – Cleveland, OH

8/3 – SummerStage – New York, NY

8/4 – Skyline Stage at the Mann – Philadelphia, PA

8/5 – The Palladium Outdoors – Worcester, MA

About The Author

Logan White

Logan loves talking about music and when he's not doing that, he's probably watching Netflix, watching his cats do cat things, or sleeping.

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Cavetown announce tour dates

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Cavetown with mxmtoon, Ricky Montgomery, and grentperez to perform live in concert at Rock the Ruins at Holliday Park in Indianapolis on Sunday, July 30, 2023!

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For 23-year-old singer/songwriter Cavetown, making music typically involves excavating and exposing his most deeply hidden thoughts and feelings. “It’s a weird dynamic because a lot of the time I’m taking something that it’s hard for me to admit even to myself, then putting it into a song and sharing it with the entire world,” says the London-based artist otherwise known as Robin Skinner. Since self-releasing his debut single at age 16, the Cambridge-based musician/producer has proven the disarming power of that outpouring, steadily amassing a devoted following and bringing his extraordinarily close-knit live show to venues across the globe. On his new album worm food , Cavetown delivers his most elaborately realized body of work to date, shaping his idiosyncratic storytelling into songs that ultimately give voice to our own most intimate emotions.

The follow-up to his 2021 EP Man’s Best Friend , worm food arrives as Cavetown’s latest full-length since his major-label debut Sleepyhead , a 2020 release that inspired NME to hail him as a “bedroompop hero building worldwide community.” As with all his output, Skinner produced the album on his own at his home studio, holing up in his garage and infusing his understated alt-pop with a powerful new vitality. “All these songs were written with the live set in mind, which I hadn’t thought about much before,” notes Skinner, who performs live with a full band. “It was fun to imagine how something might come to life onstage, and to think about how I might interact with the audience at different moments.” But while worm food encompasses a more expansive sound than his past work, each track sustains the raw sincerity that’s earned admiration from the likes of The 1975 and found him collaborating with such acclaimed artists as chloe moriondo and beabadoobee (who recently teamed up with Cavetown for his early-2022 release “Fall In Love With A Girl”).

On the album’s lead single “1994,” Cavetown presents a formidable introduction to worm food sonic landscape, offering up a wistful piece of pop-punk driven by his mercurial guitar work. Graced with an exquisitely tender vocal performance from Skinner, “1994” once again reveals his rare ability to spin his unsparing introspection into impossibly catchy rhyme (from the first verse: “I’m tryna love the person I was when I was born/Hating on a kid doesn’t serve me anymore”). “I think most people forget they’re still the same person as when they were just an innocent child,” says Skinner. “That song is about trying to allow yourself the same compassion and forgiveness you’d have for a little kid if they’d made some kind of mistake, instead of beating yourself up over it.”

One of the more lighthearted moments on worm food, “Frog” emerges as a delightfully warped declaration of affection. “‘Frog’ is about my girlfriend,” says Skinner. “When we first started dating we were both too nervous to say the words ‘boyfriend’ and ‘girlfriend,’ so one day I said to her, ‘Did you know that “BF” and “GF” stand for “boy frog” and “girl frog”?’ That was my silly way of asking her out, and now it’s our nickname for each other.” Laced with his sweetly off-kilter lyrics (“I’m gonna tell you you’re pretty/Till it makes you sick”), “Frog” unfolds in gauzy acoustic-guitar tones, then drifts into a bouncy synth line that Skinner refers to as “the frog solo.” “I had the idea to put this frog-sounding synth in the middle, in the hopes that it’d be fun to get everyone to hop up and down like a frog when we play that one live,” he says.

All throughout worm food Cavetown gracefully amplifies his vast inner monologue, often uncovering entirely unexpected ways of expressing the most familiar of feelings. On “Juno,” for instance, he precisely captures the inertia of depression while sharing a dreamy serenade to his beloved cat. “If I’m having a hard time and struggling to find a reason to get out of bed, there’s always the need to get up and feed Juno her breakfast,” says Skinner. “So no matter what else is going on in my life, she always gives me that sense of purpose.” Spiked with brooding guitar riffs and loopy synth lines, the slow-building “Worm Food” transforms his existential angst into a strangely exhilarating anthem. “It’s about feeling so small in the context of the world around you, and recognizing that in the end we all end up in the same place,” says Skinner. “It might be a pessimistic way of thinking, but it’s comforting to me in those moments when I’m worrying so much about things that maybe aren’t that important.” Meanwhile, on “Heart Attack,” Cavetown shares an up-close portrait of anxiety and self-doubt, intensifying the track’s unhinged energy with pogo-ready rhythms and a galvanizing guitar solo. “I wrote that after touring in South America, where the crowds were very excited— which was really cool, but also overwhelming,” says Skinner. “‘Heart Attack’ is about feeling pressured to put on a great show while looking after all these kids in a room that felt out of control  at times, and questioning my ability to balance all that.”

Although Skinner tends to write in solitude, a number of songs on worm food arose from his collaboration with other musicians. To that end, “Wasabi” features a guest appearance from his mother, a Baroque flute player who lends the achingly bittersweet track a certain enchanted quality. “I wrote ‘Wasabi’ after going to L.A. to visit a girl I had a massive crush on, trying to process the fact that I still had a thing for her even though I’d tried hard to get over it,” says Skinner. On “Laundry Day,” he enlisted a string quartet to magnify the melancholic mood at the heart of the song, a gorgeously sprawling piece penned after a difficult family trip. “That song is about some hard times my family’s gone through, but the chorus came from a fond childhood memory of mine, where my dad would always end up shrinking all his clothes every time he did the laundry,” Skinner reveals. And for “Kill U,” he worked with Pierce the Veil’s Vic Fuentes to sharpen the song’s arrangement of serpentine guitar lines and combustible beats. “‘Kill U’ is about wanting to kill particular parts of yourself, and finding more of those parts as you get older,” he explains.

An innately DIY artist, Skinner first discovered the depths of his imagination as a child, when he’d write and illustrate his own storybooks. After taking up guitar, he began writing and recording in his bedroom in his early teens, then releasing his lo-fi yet emotionally intricate songs on Bandcamp. Not long after the arrival of his 2018 album Lemon Boy , Cavetown inked a deal with Sire Records and started selling out venues across the U.S. and U.K. as well as performing at festivals like Reading & Leeds and Lollapalooza—all while forging such an intensely personal connection with his audience that he’s taken to keeping a cupboard full of letters received from fans. With his past triumphs including producing for artists like Tessa Violet and mxmtoon, Skinner also brings his immense creativity to the visual element of his output, an endeavor that recently found him co-directing the fantastically surreal video for “1994” alongside Lorenzo Diego. “It’s inspired by The Little Prince, which is the story of a kid who lives on a planet by himself and doesn’t want to grow up,” says Skinner. “In the video I’m portraying the Little Prince, but instead of rejecting adulthood I’m getting ready to let go of childhood, and trying to build a rocket to fly away from my planet.”

While worm food in many ways marks a major leap forward for Cavetown, the album took shape from the same instinctive approach he’s embraced since earliest days as a songwriter. “Most of the time I think up lyrics without really trying—they just fall out, and then I realize that they’re expressing something I’d been having a hard time trying to articulate,” says Skinner. “Over the years  I’ve had people tell me that my songs have had the same effect on them, where there’s something going on in their head that they haven’t been able to verbalize but then the song helps them to finally understand it. So even though I write songs for myself, as a way to process the things I’m struggling with, it’s really nice to know that they might end up helping people in some way.”

Don’t miss this live event in Indianapolis! Put this concert at the top of your “things to do in Indianapolis” list this summer.

Rock the Ruins Concert Series ‍

Rock the Ruins is a summer concert series hosted by The Vogue at Holliday Park, an enchanting 95-year-old park nestled in a gently wooded neighborhood just six miles north of downtown Indianapolis. Perfect for experiencing live music, catching up with neighbors and friends, and connecting with nature, a Rock the Ruins concert is the ideal spot to spend a summer evening. We encourage our all-ages guests to bring chairs/blankets for all Rock the Ruins shows as seating will not be provided for general admission guests. No outside coolers or alcoholic beverages will be permitted in the park as guests will be encouraged to take advantage of a variety of local and artisan vendors selling food and beverages (alcoholic and non-alcoholic). Guests must present a valid ID (and be 21+) to purchase alcoholic beverages while on-site for any Rock the Ruins event at Holliday Park.

CAVETOWN Bittersweet Daze with mxmtoon, Ricky Montgomery & Grent Perez SUNDAY, JULY 30, 2023 ROCK THE RUINS AT HOLLIDAY PARK INDIANAPOLIS, IN TICKETS AT ROCKTHERUINS.COM

PLEASE NOTE: All tickets are non-transferable and non-refundable. This event is rain or shine. This event is General Admission and seating is not provided. For a full list of permitted and prohibited items, parking and transportation details, information on ADA seating, and answers to other frequently asked questions, visit the FAQ page .

$1 from each ticket sold will be donated to This Is Home Project, a project started by Cavetown that provides funding to foundations whose focus is helping LGBTQ+ youth in need.

Limited edition

Concert poster, about rock the ruins.

Rock the Ruins is a summer concert series hosted by The Vogue at Holliday Park, an enchanting 95-year old park nestled in a gently wooded neighborhood just six miles north of downtown Indianapolis. Perfect for experiencing live music, catching up with neighbors and friends, and connecting with nature, a Rock the Ruins concert is the ideal spot to spend a summer evening. We encourage our all-ages guests to bring chairs/blankets for all Rock the Ruins shows as seating will not be provided for general admission guests. No outside coolers or alcoholic beverages will be permitted in the park as guests will be encouraged to take advantage of a variety of local and artisan vendors selling food and beverages (alcoholic and non-alcoholic). Guests must present a valid ID (and be 21+) to purchase alcoholic beverages while on-site for any Rock the Ruins event at Holliday Park.

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• July 29, 2023 Setlist

Cavetown Setlist at The Salt Shed, Chicago, IL, USA

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Tour: Bittersweet Daze Tour statistics Add setlist

• worm food Play Video
• fall in love with a girl Play Video
• Lemon Boy Play Video
• Pigeon Play Video
• 1994 Play Video
• heart attack Play Video
• wasabi Play Video
• juno Play Video
• Hug All Ur Friends ( Robbie Solo, acoustic ) Play Video
• Nobody Loves Me (with Ricky Montgomery ) ( mxmtoon ) Play Video
• frog Play Video
• a kind thing to do Play Video
• laundry day Play Video
• Juliet Play Video
• Home Play Video
• Boys Will Be Bugs Play Video
• Devil Town Play Video

Note: Devil Town was played but was not listed on the setlist.

Edits and Comments

7 activities (last edit by Flynnbop , 2 Oct 2023, 06:19 Etc/UTC )

Songs on Albums

• a kind thing to do
• fall in love with a girl
• heart attack
• laundry day
• Boys Will Be Bugs
• Hug All Ur Friends
• Nobody Loves Me

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Marquee Memories: Cavetown

Photos + Review: 'Bittersweet Daze' Tour Kick Off in Los Angeles

The salt shed.

• Cavetown This Setlist Add time Add time
• mxmtoon Add time Add time
• Ricky Montgomery Add time Add time
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Cavetown Gig Timeline

• Jul 26 2023 Levitt Pavilion Denver Denver, CO, USA Add time Add time
• Jul 28 2023 Saint Louis Music Park Maryland Heights, MO, USA Start time: 9:20 PM 9:20 PM
• Jul 29 2023 The Salt Shed This Setlist Chicago, IL, USA Add time Add time
• Jul 30 2023 Rock the Ruins 2023 Indianapolis, IN, USA Add time Add time
• Aug 01 2023 Jacobs Pavilion at Nautica Cleveland, OH, USA Add time Add time

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The italian scientific community in australia is saddened to learn of the passing of professor marcello costa..

• Publication date: April 18 2024

We would like to express our deepest sympathies to the family of Professor Marcello Costa, a distinguished neuroscientist and pioneer in the field of Italian research in Australia.

Some biographical details are provided below.

After immigrating to Australia in 1970, Professor Costa played a pivotal role in establishing the new discipline of neuroscience and the Australian Neuroscience Society (ANS), of which he became President in the 1990s. He remained at Flinders University until his retirement in 2021, where he held the personal chair of neurophysiology – the inaugural position in Australia.

He published over 230 scientific articles in international journals, 55 reviews and chapters, and wrote two books on neuroscience and gastrointestinal motor function. Marcello was a pioneer in the study of the nervous control of gastrointestinal functions, publishing his first paper in this field in 1965. Marcello has been a passionate teacher of neuroscience at both undergraduate and postgraduate level, as well as to the general public. His book, “Adventures in Gut Neuroscience”, published in 2023, offers a personal and scientific account of his journey.

He has been honoured with numerous awards and accolades throughout his career, including:

1988: Member of the Australian Academy of Sciences 1992: ‘Cavaliere della Repubblica Italiana’ by the Italian Government 2012: Matthew Flinders Distinguished Professor at Flinders University 2020: Officer of the Order of Australia (General Division) “for distinguished service to higher education and medical research, in the field of neurophysiology, and to professional scientific bodies”. In 2023, Marcello was honoured with the Distinguished Achievement Award from the Australasian Neuroscience Society. He has consistently demonstrated a strong commitment to maintaining his Italian cultural heritage and promoting Italian science in Australia. In the early 1990s, he served as president of ComItEs (Committee of Italians Abroad) in Adelaide. He was also the founder and first president of the Association of Italian Scientists in Australasia (ARIA-SA), which was established in April 2001.

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Are ‘Forever Chemicals’ a Forever Problem?

The environmental protection agency says “forever chemicals” must be removed from tap water. but they lurk in much more of what we eat, drink and use..

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email [email protected] with any questions.

From “The New York Times,” I’m Sabrina Tavernise. And this is “The Daily.”

[THEME MUSIC]

This month for the first time, the Environmental Protection Agency began to regulate a class of synthetic chemicals, known as forever chemicals, in America’s drinking water. But the chemicals, which have been linked to liver disease and other serious health problems, are in far more than just our water supply. Today, my colleague Kim Tingley explains.

It’s Wednesday, April 17.

So Kim, any time the EPA announces a regulation, I think we all sort of take notice because implicit in it is this idea that we have been exposed to something — something bad, potentially, lead or asbestos. And recently, the EPA is regulating a type of chemical known as PFAS So for those who don’t know, what are PFAS chemicals

Yeah, so PFAS stands for per and polyfluoroalkyl substances. They’re often called forever chemicals just because they persist so long in the environment and they don’t easily break down. And for that reason, we also use them in a ton of consumer products. They’re in makeup. They’re in carpet. They’re in nonstick cookware. They’re in food packaging, all sorts of things.

Yeah, I feel like I’ve been hearing about these chemicals actually for a very long time. I mean, nonstick pans, Teflon — that’s the thing that’s in my mind when I think PFAS.

Absolutely. Yeah, this class of chemicals has been around for decades. And what’s really important about this is that the EPA has decided, for the first time, to regulate them in drinking water. And that’s a ruling that stands to affect tens of millions of people.

So, help me understand where these things came from and how it’s taken so long to get to the point where we’re actually regulating them.

So, they really actually came about a long time ago. In 1938, DuPont, the people who eventually got us to Teflon, they were actually looking for a more stable kind of refrigerant. And they came upon this kind of chemical, PFAS. The thing that all PFAS chemicals have is a really strong bond between carbon atoms and fluorine atoms. This particular pairing is super strong and super durable.

They have water repellent properties. They’re stain resistant. They’re grease resistant. And they found a lot of uses for them initially in World War II. They were using them as part of their uranium enrichment process to do all these kinds of things. And then —

Well, good thing it’s Teflon.

In the 1950s is when they really started to come out as commercial products.

Even burned food won’t stick to Teflon. So it’s always easy to clean.

So, DuPont started using it in Teflon pans.

Cookware never needs scouring if it has DuPont Teflon.

And then another company, 3M also started using a kind of PFAS —

Scotchgard fabric protector. It keeps ordinary spills from becoming extraordinary stains.

— in one of their big products, Scotchgard. So you probably remember spraying that on your shoes if you want to make your shoes waterproof.

Use Scotchgard fabric protector and let your cup runneth over.

Right — miracle product, Scotchgard, Teflon. But of course, we’re talking about these chemicals because they’ve been found to pose health threats. When does that risk start to surface?

Yeah, so it’s pretty early on that DuPont and 3M start finding effects in animals in studies that they’re running in house.

Around the mid ‘60s, they start seeing that PFAS has an effect on rats. It’s increasing the liver and kidney weights of the rats. And so that seems problematic. And they keep running tests over the next decade and a half. And they try different things with different animals.

In one study, they gave monkeys really, really high levels of PFAS. And those monkeys died. And so they have a pretty strong sense that these chemicals could be dangerous. And then in 1979, they start to see that the workers that are in the plants manufacturing, working with these chemicals, that they’re starting to have higher rates of abnormal liver function. And in a Teflon plant, they had some pregnant workers that were working with these chemicals. And one of those workers in 1981 gave birth to a child who had some pretty severe birth defects.

And then by the mid 1980s, DuPont figures out that it’s not just their workers who are being exposed to these chemicals, but communities that are living in areas surrounding their Teflon plant, particularly the one in Parkersburg, West Virginia, that those communities have PFAS in their tap water.

Wow, so based on its own studies, DuPont knows its chemicals are making animals sick. They seem to be making workers sick. And now they found out that the chemicals have made their way into the water supply. What do they do with that information?

As far as we know, they didn’t do much. They certainly didn’t tell the residents of Parkersburg who were drinking that water that there was anything that they needed to be worried about.

How is that possible? I mean, setting aside the fact that DuPont is the one actually studying the health effects of its own chemicals, presumably to make sure they’re safe, we’ve seen these big, regulating agencies like the EPA and the FDA that exist in order to watch out for something exactly like this, a company that is producing something that may be harming Americans. Why weren’t they keeping a closer watch?

Yeah, so it goes kind of back to the way that we regulate chemicals in the US. It goes through an act called the Toxic Substances Control Act that’s administered by the EPA. And basically, it gives companies a lot of room to regulate themselves, in a sense. Under this act they have a responsibility to report to the EPA if they find these kinds of potential issues with a chemical. They have a responsibility to do their due diligence when they’re putting a chemical out into the environment.

But there’s really not a ton of oversight. The enforcement mechanism is that the EPA can find them. But this kind of thing can happen pretty easily where DuPont keeps going with something that they think might really be a problem and then the fine, by the time it plays out, is just a tiny fraction of what DuPont has earned from producing these chemicals. And so really, the incentive is for them to take the punishment at the end, rather than pull it out early.

So it seems like it’s just self-reporting, which is basically self-regulation in a way.

Yeah, I think that is the way a lot of advocacy groups and experts have characterized it to me, is that chemical companies are essentially regulating themselves.

So how did this danger eventually come to light? I mean, if this is in some kind of DuPont vault, what happened?

Well, there’s a couple different things that started to happen in the late ‘90s.

The community around Parkersburg, West Virginia, people had reported seeing really strange symptoms in their animals. Cows were losing their hair. They had lesions. They were behaving strangely. Some of their calves were dying. And a lot of people in the community felt like they were having health problems that just didn’t really have a good answer, mysterious sicknesses, and some cases of cancers.

And so they initiate a class action lawsuit against DuPont. As part of that class action lawsuit, DuPont, at a certain point, is forced to turn over all of their internal documentation. And so what was in the files was all of that research that we mentioned all of the studies about — animals, and workers, the birth defects. It was really the first time that the public saw what DuPont and 3M had already seen, which is the potential health harms of these chemicals.

So that seems pretty damning. I mean, what happened to the company?

So, DuPont and 3M are still able to say these were just a few workers. And they were working with high levels of the chemicals, more than a person would get drinking it in the water. And so there’s still an opportunity for this to be kind of correlation, but not causation. There’s not really a way to use that data to prove for sure that it was PFAS that caused these health problems.

In other words, the company is arguing, look, yes, these two things exist at the same time. But it doesn’t mean that one caused the other.

Exactly. And so one of the things that this class action lawsuit demands in the settlement that they eventually reach with DuPont is they want DuPont to fund a formal independent health study of the communities that are affected by this PFAS in their drinking water. And so they want DuPont to pay to figure out for sure, using the best available science, how many of these health problems are potentially related to their chemicals.

And so they ask them to pay for it. And they get together an independent group of researchers to undertake this study. And it ends up being the first — and it still might be the biggest — epidemiological study of PFAS in a community. They’ve got about 69,000 participants in this study.

Wow, that’s big.

It’s big, yeah. And what they ended up deciding was that they could confidently say that there was what they ended up calling a probable link. And so they were really confident that the chemical exposure that the study participants had experienced was linked to high cholesterol, ulcerative colitis, thyroid disease, testicular cancer, kidney cancer, and pregnancy induced hypertension.

And so those were the conditions that they were able to say, with a good degree of certainty, were related to their chemical exposure. There were others that they just didn’t have the evidence to reach a strong conclusion.

So overall, pretty substantial health effects, and kind of vindicates the communities in West Virginia that were claiming that these chemicals were really affecting their health.

Absolutely. And as the years have gone on, that was sort of just the beginning of researchers starting to understand all the different kinds of health problems that these chemicals could potentially be causing. And so since the big DuPont class action study, there’s really just been like this building and building and building of different researchers coming out with these different pieces of evidence that have accumulated to a pretty alarming picture of what some of the potential health outcomes could be.

OK, so that really kind of brings us to the present moment, when, at last, it seems the EPA is saying enough is enough. We need to regulate these things.

Yeah, it seems like the EPA has been watching this preponderance of evidence accumulate. And they’re sort of deciding that it’s a real health problem, potentially, that they need to regulate.

So the EPA has identified six of these PFAS chemicals that it’s going to regulate. But the concern that I think a lot of experts have is that this particular regulation is not going to keep PFAS out of our bodies.

We’ll be right back.

So, Kim, you just said that these regulations probably won’t keep PFAS chemicals out of our bodies. What did you mean?

Well, the EPA is talking about regulating these six kinds of PFAS. But there are actually more than 10,000 different kinds of PFAS that are already being produced and out there in the environment.

And why those six, exactly? I mean, is it because those are the ones responsible for most of the harm?

Those are the ones that the EPA has seen enough evidence about that they are confident that they are probably causing harm. But it doesn’t mean that the other ones are not also doing something similar. It’s just sort of impossible for researchers to be able to test each individual chemical compound and try to link it to a health outcome.

I talked to a lot of researchers who were involved in this area and they said that they haven’t really seen a PFAS that doesn’t have a harm, but they just don’t have information on the vast majority of these compounds.

So in other words, we just haven’t studied the rest of them enough yet to even know how harmful they actually are, which is kind of alarming.

Yeah, that’s right. And there’s just new ones coming out all the time.

Right. OK, so of the six that the EPA is actually intending to regulate, though, are those new regulations strict enough to keep these chemicals out of our bodies?

So the regulations for those six chemicals really only cover getting them out of the drinking water. And drinking water only really accounts for about 20 percent of a person’s overall PFAS exposure.

So only a fifth of the total exposure.

Yeah. There are lots of other ways that you can come into contact with PFAS. We eat PFAS, we inhale PFAS. We rub it on our skin. It’s in so many different products. And sometimes those products are not ones that you would necessarily think of. They’re in carpets. They’re in furniture. They’re in dental floss, raincoats, vinyl flooring, artificial turf. All kinds of products that you want to be either waterproof or stain resistant or both have these chemicals in them.

So, the cities and towns are going to have to figure out how to test for and monitor for these six kinds of PFAS. And then they’re also going to have to figure out how to filter them out of the water supply. I think a lot of people are concerned that this is going to be just a really expensive endeavor, and it’s also not really going to take care of the entire problem.

Right. And if you step back and really look at the bigger problem, the companies are still making these things, right? I mean, we’re running around trying to regulate this stuff at the end stage. But these things are still being dumped into the environment.

Yeah. I think it’s a huge criticism of our regulatory policy. There’s a lot of onus put on the EPA to prove that a harm has happened once the chemicals are already out there and then to regulate the chemicals. And I think that there’s a criticism that we should do things the other way around, so tougher regulations on the front end before it goes out into the environment.

And that’s what the European Union has been doing. The European Chemicals Agency puts more of the burden on companies to prove that their products and their chemicals are safe. And the European Chemicals Agency is also, right now, considering just a ban on all PFAS products.

So is that a kind of model, perhaps, of what a tough regulation could look like in the US?

There’s two sides to that question. And the first side is that a lot of people feel like it would be better if these chemical companies had to meet a higher standard of proof in terms of demonstrating that their products or their chemicals are going to be safe once they’ve been put out in the environment.

The other side is that doing that kind of upfront research can be really expensive and could potentially limit companies who are trying to innovate in that space. In terms of PFAS, specifically, this is a really important chemical for us. And a lot of the things that we use it in, there’s not necessarily a great placement at the ready that we can just swap in. And so it’s used in all sorts of really important medical devices or renewable energy industries or firefighting foam.

And in some cases, there are alternatives that might be safer that companies can use. But in other cases, they just don’t have that yet. And so PFAS is still really important to our daily lives.

Right. And that kind of leaves us in a pickle because we know these things might be harming us. Yet, we’re kind of stuck with them, at least for now. So, let me just ask you this question, Kim, which I’ve been wanting to ask you since the beginning of this episode, which is, if you’re a person who is concerned about your exposure to PFAS, what do you do?

Yeah. So this is really tricky and I asked everybody this question who I talked to. And everybody has a little bit of a different answer based on their circumstance. For me what I ended up doing was getting rid of the things that I could sort of spot and get rid of. And so I got rid of some carpeting and I checked, when I was buying my son a raincoat, that it was made by a company that didn’t use PFAS.

It’s also expensive. And so if you can afford to get a raincoat from a place that doesn’t manufacture PFAS, it’s going to cost more than if you buy the budget raincoat. And so it’s kind of unfair to put the onus on consumers in that way. And it’s also just not necessarily clear where exactly your exposure is coming from.

So I talk to people who said, well, it’s in dust, so I vacuum a lot. Or it’s in my cleaning products, so I use natural cleaning products. And so I think it’s really sort of a scattershot approach that consumers can take. But I don’t think that there is a magic approach that gets you a PFAS-free life.

So Kim, this is pretty dark, I have to say. And I think what’s frustrating is that it feels like we have these government agencies that are supposed to be protecting our health. But when you drill down here, the guidance is really more like you’re on your own. I mean, it’s hard not to just throw up your hands and say, I give up.

Yeah. I think it’s really tricky to try to know what you do with all of this information as an individual. As much as you can, you can try to limit your individual exposure. But it seems to me as though it’s at a regulatory level that meaningful change would happen, and not so much throwing out your pots and pans and getting new ones.

One thing about PFAS is just that we’re in this stage still of trying to understand exactly what it’s doing inside of us. And so there’s a certain amount of research that has to happen in order to both convince people that there’s a real problem that needs to be solved, and clean up what we’ve put out there. And so I think that we’re sort of in the middle of that arc. And I think that that’s the point at which people start looking for solutions.

Kim, thank you.

Here’s what else you should know today. On Tuesday, in day two of jury selection for the historic hush money case against Donald Trump, lawyers succeeded in selecting 7 jurors out of the 12 that are required for the criminal trial after failing to pick a single juror on Monday.

Lawyers for Trump repeatedly sought to remove potential jurors whom they argued were biased against the president. Among the reasons they cited were social media posts expressing negative views of the former President and, in one case, a video posted by a potential juror of New Yorkers celebrating Trump’s loss in the 2020 election. Once a full jury is seated, which could come as early as Friday, the criminal trial is expected to last about six weeks.

Today’s episode was produced by Clare Toeniskoetter, Shannon Lin, Summer Thomad, Stella Tan, and Jessica Cheung, with help from Sydney Harper. It was edited by Devon Taylor, fact checked by Susan Lee, contains original music by Dan Powell, Elisheba Ittoop, and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.

That’s it for The Daily. I’m Sabrina Tavernise. See you tomorrow.

• April 18, 2024   •   30:07 The Opening Days of Trump’s First Criminal Trial
• April 17, 2024   •   24:52 Are ‘Forever Chemicals’ a Forever Problem?
• April 16, 2024   •   29:29 A.I.’s Original Sin
• April 15, 2024   •   24:07 Iran’s Unprecedented Attack on Israel
• April 14, 2024   •   46:17 The Sunday Read: ‘What I Saw Working at The National Enquirer During Donald Trump’s Rise’
• April 12, 2024   •   34:23 How One Family Lost $900,000 in a Timeshare Scam
• April 11, 2024   •   28:39 The Staggering Success of Trump’s Trial Delay Tactics
• April 10, 2024   •   22:49 Trump’s Abortion Dilemma
• April 9, 2024   •   30:48 How Tesla Planted the Seeds for Its Own Potential Downfall
• April 8, 2024   •   30:28 The Eclipse Chaser
• April 7, 2024 The Sunday Read: ‘What Deathbed Visions Teach Us About Living’
• April 5, 2024   •   29:11 An Engineering Experiment to Cool the Earth

Hosted by Sabrina Tavernise

Featuring Kim Tingley

Produced by Clare Toeniskoetter ,  Shannon M. Lin ,  Summer Thomad ,  Stella Tan and Jessica Cheung

With Sydney Harper

Edited by Devon Taylor

Original music by Dan Powell ,  Elisheba Ittoop and Marion Lozano

Engineered by Chris Wood

Listen and follow The Daily Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

The Environmental Protection Agency has begun for the first time to regulate a class of synthetic chemicals known as “forever chemicals” in America’s drinking water.

Kim Tingley, a contributing writer for The New York Times Magazine, explains how these chemicals, which have been linked to liver disease and other serious health problems, came to be in the water supply — and in many more places.

On today’s episode

Kim Tingley , a contributing writer for The New York Times Magazine.

Background reading

“Forever chemicals” are everywhere. What are they doing to us?

The E.P.A. issued its rule about “forever chemicals” last week.

There are a lot of ways to listen to The Daily. Here’s how.

We aim to make transcripts available the next workday after an episode’s publication. You can find them at the top of the page.

Fact-checking by Susan Lee .

The Daily is made by Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Ploeg, M.J. Davis Lin, Dan Powell, Sydney Harper, Mike Benoist, Liz O. Baylen, Asthaa Chaturvedi, Rachelle Bonja, Diana Nguyen, Marion Lozano, Corey Schreppel, Rob Szypko, Elisheba Ittoop, Mooj Zadie, Patricia Willens, Rowan Niemisto, Jody Becker, Rikki Novetsky, John Ketchum, Nina Feldman, Will Reid, Carlos Prieto, Ben Calhoun, Susan Lee, Lexie Diao, Mary Wilson, Alex Stern, Dan Farrell, Sophia Lanman, Shannon Lin, Diane Wong, Devon Taylor, Alyssa Moxley, Summer Thomad, Olivia Natt, Daniel Ramirez and Brendan Klinkenberg.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Paula Szuchman, Lisa Tobin, Larissa Anderson, Julia Simon, Sofia Milan, Mahima Chablani, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Jeffrey Miranda, Renan Borelli, Maddy Masiello, Isabella Anderson and Nina Lassam.

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